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Messages - 2genvincent

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General Discussion / Re: I have no idea what I am doing.
« on: Jun 30, 13, 05:22:03 AM »
Frankly, i have to say this, trying to release a half decent MMO with only 1 or 2 people on your team is impossible to do within a decent time frame. You will need to recruit people to your cause, which means making your product sound as awesome as it possibly can. You need to show it off to people otherwise most wont be interested if you just say something like "ive got a great idea for a game, come join our team".

I am so glad that Hero is not a drag and drop system. If it were, we would not be in a position to make any kind of quality game. Looking at "engines" like Gamemaker and RPGmaker...its kind of ludicrous how much more advanced Hero is compared to those.

If you want to create an MMO, i can NOT sugar coat it for you, it is a tough, long hard slog through a crap storm of issues and headaches. If you want to make a real go at it, i salute you, but be prepared.

I appreciate the kick in the ass from reality.  I suspected as much, and hearing this confirmed should help me deal with the inevitable troubles along the way.  I now have a few acquaintances that will possibly assist in some way or another pro bono, which feels like a good step forward.  Unfortunately, all of these acquaintances are maybes at best with being able to contribute, since unless I can pay a liveable wage (I cannot), assisting in Second Generation is a hobby if time permits that would be helped very casually.  But hey, any help at all is better than none, I feel.

Also just fyi, ive tried all the main game engines out there, talking ones able to make something other than a flash game,

Hero is the only option you really have beyond writing your own entire engine. UDK no real network structure, Unity has a light weight setup with a few vendors but nothing able to manage a MMO, CryEngine same thing. All of those game engines have focused on the front end to make things super easy. Hero focused on the back end to take care of the MMO side, and have done a decent job at the front side.

Just hang in there you will be fine.

Next steps, put together a solid design, something you can float around to coders to get their interest. While looking start to build some terrain / areas out. A picture is worth a thousand words.
Find a coder, the two of you work out the deep dark details of your game, how does a player progress, how does the economy work, what is going to be your counter to a system of constant increase, aka what money pits you going to put in, how are mobs going to work, do they just spawn, fight die, or do they try other things. You doing big hit points, small hit points. etc. Try and nail as much of that down as you can.

Then just do like I did asked on facebook, linked-in, with some co-workers from previous jobs etc, and found I had semi close friends that had really good skills.
Poof small core team setup and ready to go.

Now where is my whip cause they been slacking.

I was considering Unity for a while.  It is indeed lacking in terms of MMORPG options, that is for sure.  I have nothing to say against Hero, let me clarify--it has awesome potential and I hear nothing but good things.  My only "issue" with Hero is me being a crybaby who does not know how to use Hero to even close to its potential, haha.

I either have already taken care of myself or I am in the process of taking care of most of the ideas that you have brought up.  My idea for a game was more than "Cyberpunk MMORPG, copy-paste WoW with futuristic stuff," so I put a lot of thought into every detail conceptually and operation-wise.  I find this kind of mechanic-solidifying theory to be incredibly fun.  Right now I am drafting and refining everything, and once I have a legitimate third of the game ready to start developing (should by the end of 2013 considering how I work), I will be seeking a coder for serious business.  I have found that any specific part of the game's groundwork being drawn up is the hardest part of the process, and that everything following in the same element quickly follows like a domino effect if the element is just started.  There is a coding club at the local college, which bewildered me--some people out there legitimately enjoy flexing their code muscles and have no want to create their own content.  I will be seeking these people out when the semester starts.

A whip is only so intimidating on display.  May I suggest a stained beatstick?  It really gets morale up.

General Discussion / Re: I have no idea what I am doing.
« on: Jun 29, 13, 12:23:37 AM »
I think that Heroengine would be a grand tool for one person, provided that that they can program, model and think creatively. However, for the most part, people can't do this. People may be able to make a fully working game, but it won't be interesting, or will be an exact copy of something else they saw (not on purpose, its just the way it goes). HeroCloud is a good tool for an individual, but an even better tool for a team, due to the in-world editing, and allowing for all members to go about their own business, without needing to download/upload source, and being able to all work at the same time.

Our own team for example is really two members, we have some of and on's, but it is really two members who do anything. If you are just an indi group, and not doing it for large scale, HeroEngine is just fine with two people :)

Hearing that Hero works just fine with two people is a nice relief considering how intimidated I have been by the technical process :)

Hero works well with small teams.

And as stated most games start with one programmer, and one idea / concept guy.

The concept guy creates the direction the game should head. The programmer shakes his head, then figures a way to do it, after all.

The biggest part of the game is the back end systems, and building them, well. So having a coder is key.

With that said though, there are a billion pieces to launching a MMO, so you WILL need a team, but you can get started with just two. And reason I say you will need a team, is 1 or 2 people really won't be able to launch a full MMO of high quality, in any timely manner. Here is a check list of things.

Website (need to build, design, link into engine) etc.

Marketing (way down the road but need someone to take those 4 hours a day doing Q and A sessions with game sites.

Audio, got to make a bunch of audio, sound clips for noises, music for ambience, bird sounds for chirping. All of this takes lots of time to get done.

Modeling - Need a bunch of models, making refined low poly models that look great takes time.
Modeling 3d characters - Need npcs etc and they need to be animated, and refining animations and rigs, once again tons of time.

World builder, have to build, all the terrain place all the trees, rocks, grass. You can toss it down, but to make game have a wow factor you need to dedicate a lot of time to this.

The list kinda keeps going on and on.

My point isn't to scare you, or make you quite till you have a team. My point is 2 people is all it takes to get things going, but don't pass up an opportunity to build a team up. Cause it will require a team by the end of the project.
Unless you want to spend 9 years making it, cause you are doing it all yourself.

But just to give you hope, My game started with just two people, me and friend, I a coder, he a good concept person. We spent almost a year working together to lay out the game's structure, core features, what we could or couldn't get done, etc. I've started coding the core pieces, and he keeps working on Lore, and such. Somewhere along the lines I managed to pick up a 2d artist for GUI, and concept art / webpage artwork, I've picked up 1 or 2 sound people, a world builder, and a few other possible members. Since doing that things have started to pick up in pace, and I don't feel this crushing hammer, on me, cause I no longer need to worry about learning how to make sounds, how to make logos, or art concepts, etc. I can use the teams strengths, which lets me focus on the things I am good at.

Long story short, you can only spread butter so thin over bread before the bread rips. Don't be the bread my friend.  :P

Another vote for "two people to start," which is a further relief.  I appreciate you clarifying some of the upcoming hurdles, as I can use this information to better prepare what assets I need--I certainly do not want to spend nine years on this trying to go it alone, even if I initially thought that I could handle everything.  What a noob I was / still am.

General Discussion / Re: I have no idea what I am doing.
« on: Jun 27, 13, 10:32:12 PM »
I might as well throw my two cents in.

You are already off to a great start, you haven't discounted the idea of joining up with-someone else. I am a lucky and rare case, I'm no coder myself but I've got a nack for writing and can create stellar landscapes. I can design the GUI, but in no-way can I implement it. I was lucky enough to get taken in by a friend who codes, and had no idea for the concept. Most people don't aren't that lucky.

There are plenty of groups, although they may not be advertising their presence, or perhaps they are not even on Heroengine yet, that are all coding, with no "Good" direction. These people have their own ideas about what they want to do, but they are more likely to let a person who proves themselves to have great, implementable ideas take over on the creative side. The easy method is to find and petition these groups, you will have to show some initial proof to get in, because everyone has an idea, but if your idea is good, then they will most likely take you in.

The hard method is this, you can search for programmers. The reason why this is hard, is because either all the programmers have already gone out to other groups, or because they are hidden away and invested like the ones I've mentioned above. This method is only to be thought about if:
1) Time is no object, You have to be willing to search for a while to find someone, and don't become disheartened if you don't find someone.
2) Be satisfied,  One programmer is all you need for a side project, and don't worry about terrain or visuals, its the basics that need to be cemented first.
3) Plan, Have certain tasks planned out in a document you can hand to potentials, show them that what you want is achievable, and that you are worth working with.

Now I know you have mentioned that you have no alpha to show, and so are worried about not being able to show it off to get people in, but that doesn't matter. The people who need to see alphas are the creators, modelers, texture artists and graphic designers. The programmers who are looking at only the alpha projects you probably don't want, lots of their work is already done for them, meaning that they won't have to contribute as much, but will be rewarded the same in the end.

Everyone has stories and quests, what is important is mechanics and implementation. You are ahead of the game by having stats for classes laid out, this makes it far easier for the programmers to implement them, because they have goals to shoot for. My recomendation, focus for a month or two on creating the mechanics,
"If Fireball is cast, then it will do 16 damage per characters level, untill they reach 34, in which case it will reduce itself to 8. It has a 3 second cool down, in which all the casters other fire type spells cannot be cast for an additional second. This spell can only be cast by Wizards and Funky Rogues."
That is the sort of planning that you need to do. Remember, it doesn't have to be done all at once, just create enough that your potential coder can get started, and will know exactly what they have to do without asking you. (Heroengine supplies this handy tool called the Dream Manager. It's located under tools, and what it allows you to do is set tasks for your team, or individual users. By using this tool, as opposed to a web-based one such as Task-Freak, everything your team needs will be inside the game, right next to where they are coding)

I honestly think that with the wish for the cyberpunk game that you want, you would be better off sticking by yourself. It could very well morph into dystopian or plain out Sci-fi, and if you are going to care about it as much as you sound like you are going to, you're going to want to make sure it says on track.

Fortunately, time is not too much of an object (although I would like to release my game before Red Tek releases their Cyberpunk 2077 title in a few years as to avoid looking derivative of their unrelated work).  Knowing that one skilled programmer is all that it takes to get things started is a nice relief; the word "team" is used so often in the official Hero videos that I (before posting this) have come to fear that this is not a tool for an individual or two.  Regarding the plan phase, that is where all of my focus has gone.  After receiving feedback on my initial post, I immediately decided to get in and fine-tune the parts that will go into Hero, and that should keep me busy for some time as I can probably perfect much of it before it even becomes digital.  Those Fireball-like mechanics are something that I am very good at creating and tweaking, so I will focus on that without worrying too much about how to get it into Hero itself.

You bring up an interesting point about late-stage programmers wanting an alpha first.

General Discussion / Re: I have no idea what I am doing.
« on: Jun 27, 13, 12:57:50 AM »

I would first start of on the main wiki-page, and that you learn about the tools first (Area Manager, Properties Window, Console, Chat, Render Panel, ...) and start building your own areas.

There are also a number of GUI tutorials on the wiki, but if you really want to get into it, I suggest AFTER you read the wiki-tutorials to dig into the tutorials posted by users.

If you do not have previous programming experience, and although HeroEngine was designed and somewhat built for users without serious coding knowledge, it's actually not so much so. Making online games does require several years of experience before you can make the jump.

What can you do best? Start of with there and show it to the public, maybe you will get some more people along the way :)

Tutorials from others would be a good place to start, I had not thought of that.  Several years of online game-making experience is definitely not something that I have, unfortunately =/

As for what I can do best, I have this answer which will feel like a lazy person's cop-out:  I am an idea man.  I took up this project by myself and I feel that my skills are best used in the creative side; content design (drawing up the world and everything in it), story development (which is the biggest task so far), encounter design (who fights how), and game mechanics (classes / specs / balance) are my main tasks that I am finishing right now.  This would be good had I been part of a team, but since this is my personal project and I do not have an alpha to show, hiring other people who actually know how to put complete ideas from paper into a game is not something that I can yet do.  tl;dr, I am doing everything that is outside of Hero aside from sound.

You could start with the beginner script tutorials on the wiki.  Also there's a Dev. created tutorials section on these forums.  Once you get through a bunch of stuff, you'll either want to learn more, or throw your pc across the room :P

Also, if you have the talent in aspects other than coding, you could always look around and join another team.

If only it were that easy!  My first issue with being a part of a preexisting team is that my reason for starting this project is because I have grown tired of MMORPGs neglecting what I enjoy most (the cyberpunk genre) and for just not being ideal to me in general.  If I join a team with its goals already in place, I do not really have say in what direction the project goes as it is by no means my project, and by no means my place to suggest huge changes.  The other issue that I have is that I already have a career unrelated to gaming (although I could leave if the price was at least equal), and my résumé in the field of game design is nonexistent beyond extensive gaming experience and games made with accessible tools as hobby.  Despite what I feel are very good ideas for a game, as someone who screens prospective employees, not being able to actually code and not having anything worthwhile on my résumé makes me too much of a gamble to hire in a gaming-related job, I feel.

Hopefully the beginner stuff that you are pointing me to will provide the former response.

As stated above, just take it slow, lean on the default structures provided. IE don't worry about redoing the character creation screen as your first task, use what's there to get you going.

Spend time making an area and utilizing the tools already there, the terrain editor, the environments, the asset library, etc get cozy with those. Don't worry about needing to dive head first into the code.

After you have the easier stuff mastered, then... you can start looking at some of the more complex things. Also do look at the developer created tutorials, you can gleam a bunch off of them.

I do have to ask though, do you have any coding experience in any language? If so it's a bit daughnting to get use to but nothing impossible. And hero takes a ton of the heavy lifting out of the way by giving you a bunch of the backend server (machine and network) level pieces out of the way leaving you to just focus on your game.

There is also a bunch of teams that always need some added help if you want to see about getting some real experience with some guideance. Especially if you have other skills, that are useful.

So list off what skills you do have, and we can problably point you in a strong direction to start. Eventually you will go down every path, but having one that will feel less challenging is always a good place to start.

Take it slow.  Hm.  You may be on to something!  I wanted to take a "hit the ground running" approach, but the only thing that I hit was a wall!  It is clear now that expecting results immediately was a naïve idea.  The terrain editor was another option to start with, but since I really have no idea what to do when I open Hero, I will have to follow a tutorial to just access the most basic things.  Hopefully someone has already made a tutorial on the most basic things, dumbed down to a way that someone with no real knowledge in game design can understand.

To answer your question, no, I do not have any coding experience in any language.  The backend logistics not being a factor was probably the biggest drawing point of Hero for me and it is nice not having to worry about that expense in my design, I agree.

Ah, another mention of working with a different project's team.  Maybe that is not a bad idea after all?  I want to contribute in what ways that I can to a better game that has yet to be released, I admit, even if it is minimally.  My "experience" boils down to playing games since the NES Final Fantasy and playing so many games that I know exactly what I do not like or want in a game, but unfortunately what I like does not necessarily translate to "profitable" (see:  cyberpunk).  I ultimately want to make something more enjoyable and objectively better that builds on works of the past while still being as unique as possible.  I have been told that this is a lofty ideal.

Unfortunately, that kind of drag-and-drop, click-to-create approach would be way too restrictive for a high end development platform like the HeroEngine - there's simply no way they could provide enough options in that kind of system to support the huge range of projects that developers can come up with.
One of the big selling points of the HE is that it allows you to make just about any game kind of online game - which means that it's pretty much required to be quite "blank" so as not to restrict users too much.

I have heard this many times since I considered licensing Hero, that the freedom that one has with Hero is worth the cost of an ultimately-accessible interface.  As someone who has not coded before, I feel that I cannot comprehend how fantastic this is as well as someone with years of coding experience will.  Looks like I have some learning to do.

Thank you all for your input so far!  I will keep checking this post in case anyone feels inclined to reply :)

General Discussion / [Resolved] I have no idea what I am doing.
« on: Jun 26, 13, 05:31:53 AM »
Hello, all.  I have made several games in the past with various RPG Makers in both 2D and 3D, so I figured that Hero would be easy enough to get into.  I still knew that there would be a learning curve going into this, but I had no idea that the learning curve would be so...intimidating.  I have no prior coding knowledge, and all of the tutorials that I watched online before obtaining a license mislead me to thinking that the bulk of creation would be a series of sliders with customizable variables, and that this would be extremely intuitive for non-coders.

As all of you with Hero experience would know already, I was very, very wrong.  As my subject states, I have no idea what I am doing.

I have enough drafted, hand-written / drawn work to get started with rough versions of what will be a final product (character classes and specs, text for an alpha's worth of story, maps, etc), and I felt before I loaded up Hero for the first time that it would be like any other game maker or map editor.  This did not turn out to be the case.

So, in short:  Where do I begin?  Where I wanted to begin was designing menus and interface options, starting with a client's log-in screen, character creation / select screen, and default UI that could be adjusted by players.  I also wanted to get right into making one of the classes with talent trees like old WoW or current SWTOR.  After examining all menus and possible tools, however, I am faced with essentially a foreign language.

This task is more daunting than I thought that it would be, and it is really demoralizing considering the ease of access and success that I have had in other game creators in the past that were not written for people with coding knowledge :(  If someone could direct me anywhere aside from "the wiki" which uses the language that I cannot understand in Hero or "the YouTube channel" to get started, I would appreciate that; many of the YouTube tutorials for Hero are completely silent, which results in me not learning anything from much of that source, either.

Relevant information:  The game that I am creating is a cyberpunk MMORPG that feels like most MMORPGs; if you have played WoW / SW:TOR / GW, you will know how to play it.

An aside:  Does Hero slow computer performance for other developers?  The computer that I had starting this project only has 2x 2.4 GHz processors with 16g of RAM, and I figured that it would be enough.  I have no problems upgrading if this is below the threshold for running a program designed to make MMORPGs.

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