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Author Topic: Hosting yourself, Licensed hosting?  (Read 8644 times)

nocake

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Hosting yourself, Licensed hosting?
« on: Feb 16, 16, 09:03:44 PM »

Looking for a discussion in regards to some things posted: https://community.heroengine.com/forums/index.php/topic,6082.0.html


Is it possible that Idea Fabrik would be willing to license out hosting?

One of my main concerns and turn off to continue my incredibly indie MMO is that you guys have always seemed to state you want a hard publish date which is extremely hard to reach.
IMO as well it is not really industry standard to have a hard release, rather a broken ass alpha where the users get to test it all with you and then once the game is polished you can monetize it.

In my regards I would rather just make it public and have the community come into my world and mess around for free right now and enjoy the world I am building. With understanding there will be plenty of wipes and broken features.

I would have no problem paying for my own servers upfront to have my game public at  the moment. Then if I build a community and make any money off it I just directly share that with you.

I would even pay the yearly fee for + monthly fee for the hosted live game play servers up front.

The only reason I never upgraded was because of my fear of the release processes.


Please, AlexSH can we talk about different ways to reach a public market while still keeping the same revenue sharing model in place.



On top of that I am part owner of a hosting company in San Jose, CA. Let's talk about licensing hosting for the west coast servers. You can gain profit off the licensing as well as provide your customers with a way to quickly release to the public.





HE-SARRENE

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Re: Hosting yourself, Licensed hosting?
« Reply #1 on: Feb 16, 16, 09:24:05 PM »

Hello and good evening,
I may be a wee bit confused, but I am here to help as much as I can.

I re-read that post you linked though, though I know it very well. I am not finding any place that we have stated a hard release date from our clients.

I know it was specifically said that:
Quote
" Second, when you are ready to go to an open alpha or beta, we work with you while you pick how many servers you think you will need. "

With the focus on when you, the developer is ready. Perhaps I am missing something from what one of my past predecessors has stated?

Please let me know where this has been stated, and I will do my very best to clear up any confusion either of us have. This is not how we operate, nor should it be. :)

It is always best to ask, that way things can always get sorted out. :)

Hope to hear back from you soon.
- Sarrene'
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ToY-Krun

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Re: Hosting yourself, Licensed hosting?
« Reply #2 on: Feb 16, 16, 09:24:57 PM »

hrm i may misunderstand what you're getting at, but we're not kept from releasing when we feel the game is ready..
We arent limited with when and how we share the game for Alpha or beta...
These servers dont cost us any more.. unless we have a desire for more than is supplied, which is far more than enough for most..


The only requirement that i can think of is that HE will help you determine if you're really ready for alpha/beta etc as its them footing the bill, not the world builder (again unless you want alot more servers to be set up for you).


nocake

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Re: Hosting yourself, Licensed hosting?
« Reply #3 on: Mar 03, 16, 07:00:04 PM »

I posted the link because it was essentially discussing the same topic I have about the profit sharing and how we can obtain a launch status.

I have stated many times my plan for launch and how I want to launch an incomplete game and see if I can create a community behind it because my game has a very niche market. Not to mention I am building this game as a world for me to play in so I dont really care if I have to pay for hosting for life.

I understand that means upfront cost would go onto IdeaFabric under the current operating agreement which is why I am interested in paying for the hosting myself and then share any revenue that might come from it.


It has been stated in multiple conversations over many years that you needed a polished and finished game. Admittedly most was with the old egotistical employee who was 0 help but even since the closure of new sales I have asked what the procedure was and basically asked to sit on the sideline and wait.

I am asking directly, can we launch our game and pay for the hosting up front?
Bypassing the agreement that you host the game AND revenue share.
Or even offer the ability for me to pay for my servers through you or another host, aka licensing.

I am asking if I can pay the upfront hosting cost out of my own pocket so I can release a game client to the public for free to download (knowing the game isnt near finish either) and then revenue share anything that might come from it after I figure out how I will monetize.

Please I am looking for a direct business decision on this which is why I am asking Alex directly. He seems to have the power to be able to rework these contracts into something that will work for an indie market not just Triple A titles.

I am actually kind of shocked he hasn't posted on the forums and asked for customer input on what we would like to see.

Please can I get a response from him in regards to possibly changing the licensing and operating agreements in place to still favor the revenue share as well as allow me to publish my game to the public.

« Last Edit: Mar 03, 16, 07:04:59 PM by nocake »
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keeperofstars

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Re: Hosting yourself, Licensed hosting?
« Reply #4 on: Mar 03, 16, 07:42:29 PM »

nocake, the HE-devs have even in the darker days always worked with developers to determine when and what is best for both them and the dev.

They have always let you release unfinished pieces of the game into alpha and in some cases beta. They aren't worried about having a full polished game released overall. What they lean against is releasing something as "launched" that has big bugs and gaping issues with performance.

I think you are looking at two different aspects here though which is a bit different then some of the previous posts. You aren't looking to release an unfinished game. you will be releasing a "finished" game what you however are doing is releasing a game that has a long list of future enhancements. Which is fine.

The difference is though if you are trying to release a game that for example crashes ever 10 minutes a player is in zone X,Y then yes the HE devs will suggest it's not polished enough for a release as a means to protect the image of the engine.

If you have a good segment of a game that works perfectly fine, and would want to take it all the way to release I feel on a personal aspect aka my opinion that the HE devs would have no problem letting you do just that. As long as you were clear and up front with customers. Which I know you would be.

So if you have your game and it's base core systems in place and ready to release to a community of players the devs won't stand in your way too much.

The main reasons they even get too into the status of the game is they want to see you succeed, and when a game starts to transition from development to production status, there are lots of pieces and work they have to do on their side to aid. Account systems, ensuring / aiding with subscription setup / microtransaction shops etc, so they want to know the developer is serious and ready for a launch, cause it's not like it's a simple aspect of them hitting copy paste and poof you are up. Cause you have to front dollars for server costs etc. So it's mainly just a discussion around your goals and what support you need aspects from the devs. Then once that is setup you are good to go.

I mean no MMO is ever finished or hell even polished. Their main focus has always been, more so on stability of play than feature list length even if you have a well defined list. So if you have a stable core and a modest amount of content, or ability to create a roadmap of content. As in "I hope to release new "zones / areas" once a month as our world builders can add them etc. Then I think you will have little problem working things out with the devs.

As a side note, do listen to them when it comes to specs and loads and what hosting aspects that will be needed. Cause they have been doing it for a long time. lol And really when you get ready for your beta / release aspects all they are doing is managing the complex system configurations and then making sure that works as intended. Despite what some think the HE-devs have always been a blessing to work with over the years. I've only ever had one person that was a pain and we don't need to say his name, and he is long gone. Everyone else is just a delight, and they really do want to help.

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nocake

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Re: Hosting yourself, Licensed hosting?
« Reply #5 on: Mar 03, 16, 08:00:00 PM »

Keeper I have full respect for you and agree with what you are saying in regards to what IF is looking for but I think you are missing my point in what I think the market is asking for.

I am stating that the market has changed drastically since IF conceived their offerings.

Everyone in the IF staff is great except the 1 that has finally been removed.

Gaping holes and constant crashes are to be expected now in a new indie game release with a grand scale concept

Tarnishing HE's name anymore than it already is is also a joke, they had to stop sales. That tarnish you will never be able to remove.

IF needs to create offerings that cater to the new indie development of creating a super basic concept game that is broken to hell but has your ideas behind it and find other gamers that can download the client and see your POS game and decide if they like it or not in hopes they continue supporting it to its future plans.

They really need to do it fast as well to cover the fear they created when they had to stop sales.

Currently as an indie developer I have no way of obtaining what they are requesting or at least what they have responded to me before.

And just to reiterate my main question is:
"I am asking if I can pay the upfront hosting cost out of my own pocket so I can release a game client to the public for free to download (knowing the game isnt near even a soft finish either) and then revenue share anything that might come from it after I figure out how I will monetize."

I mean for fuck sakes games are being given a million dollars based on loading some stock assets into a game and taking a few pictures. If I released my broken ass game right now to my niche community I guarantee I could get my game moved along a lot faster.

I never stooped to that bullshit kickstarter craze because I saw all this coming and decided to stay completely indie because IF said they would work with me.

 I now feel like I have a base enough game that would showcase systems that my niche community would be looking for and would completely understand a broken ass game but would be more willing to support me seeing that I actually have the system created and I am not just releasing some bullshit images and edited footage. 

Just look to Aventurine. :P

Also I can't even get my posting for my game moved from the "tell us" to the "show us" category when I have a ton of content on their now. I was told the access was lost or something on skype to do that......IF can't even hack their forums to update my category ID on a post.
https://community.heroengine.com/forums/index.php/topic,5844.0.html

For a while I was the only one releasing video content.........

:(


« Last Edit: Mar 03, 16, 08:16:24 PM by nocake »
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AlexSH

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Re: Hosting yourself, Licensed hosting?
« Reply #6 on: Mar 03, 16, 11:17:04 PM »

Hello NoCake, you are raising some interesting points.

I will state this again for the record: IDEA FABRIK DOES NOT SET OR ASK FOR HARD DATES FOR PUBLISHING GAMES. We ask to be informed about your plans, so we can plan our work to support all developers at different stages of their game development. For example, staging work for game release takes two IF engineers two full weeks to prepare.

Regarding your specific questions, please email us at support and we can discuss options that are available to you regarding licensing.

Best, Alex
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Prometheus2012

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Re: Hosting yourself, Licensed hosting?
« Reply #7 on: Mar 04, 16, 09:48:53 AM »

If your game has even a close chance of being a success and your team is serious about getting your project out the door, the team at IF will of course want to help you out as much as they can to get your game to an actual release.

Ive not seen anything about hard dates or anything like that. They just dont want to go releasing 500 games to the public that are 10% complete or less.

nocake

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Re: Hosting yourself, Licensed hosting?
« Reply #8 on: Mar 04, 16, 12:57:45 PM »

Hello NoCake, you are raising some interesting points.

I will state this again for the record: IDEA FABRIK DOES NOT SET OR ASK FOR HARD DATES FOR PUBLISHING GAMES. We ask to be informed about your plans, so we can plan our work to support all developers at different stages of their game development. For example, staging work for game release takes two IF engineers two full weeks to prepare.

Regarding your specific questions, please email us at support and we can discuss options that are available to you regarding licensing.

Best, Alex

Thank you,

How can we get the 2 weeks down?
I have a great team at my hosting company that create some amazing auto-provisioning systems.

As I stated before I am also interested licensed hosting.
I understand you dont want to give the server source out for anyone to host but have you thought about having third party licensed hosts that can handle this transition for you?

The power of HE is its collaboration but its biggest limit is my ability to publish a game.

You can say IF will help you with launching but the bottom line is it needs to be streamlined.

I can download unity today and have a build for the public tomorrow if I was fast enough.

That appeal is beginning to weigh a lot more than the collaboration and power tools HE offers.
After 5+ years of HE that is a frightening statement.



Also please can you directly answer my question on here, I think it is important to be transparent about this issue to the entire community. I will submit my application via the forums as well once I have more insight into this question.

"How much would it cost or take to be able to publish my game and have it hosted by you or someone else regardless of the current state of my game?"



and last but not least can I get my post moved from "tell me" to "show me". This is extremely important as anyone coming to your forums will go directly to that forum. It is hurting your image greatly as well as the creators trying to release media. I have experienced this many times when talking to other developers about what platform to use for their MMO. If you have access to the DB you can hack an admin account in under 5 minutes to the forums. I dont see it being that big of a request and shows good faith as well as marketing!

Thank you.




« Last Edit: Mar 04, 16, 02:02:14 PM by nocake »
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nocake

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Re: Hosting yourself, Licensed hosting?
« Reply #9 on: Mar 04, 16, 02:07:19 PM »

Is the 2 week set up time for pushing any content including updates or just the set up?

Do we have to work with IF staff to push updates? If so how long does that take?
« Last Edit: Mar 04, 16, 02:16:41 PM by nocake »
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ToY-Krun

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Re: Hosting yourself, Licensed hosting?
« Reply #10 on: Mar 04, 16, 04:35:38 PM »

nocake, do you have your game at the point of worrying about this?

1.) Is your character system ready?  (creation, stats, controller, animations, graphics)
2.) have you bug checked and fixed errors?
3.) Is the game playable to any degree?
4.) Have you put together a private prealpha team for testing? (if you have seats for it)
5.) Are you sure you're ready for alpha?
6.) I have to ask this... is there a particular reason you want to pay for the service that is provided to you
at no extra cost? 

IF you can answer yes to these very basic things, then you should have contacted IF about the possiblity of setting up Alpha back last year when you were still working on the game.  I see that during that time there didnt seem to be a problem with the way things were set up.... nothing has changed.

If you're ready for alpha, IF would really have liked to know about that.

I'm curious what brought this on, the link you gave in the initial post, doesnt say anything that hasnt been posted on this forum all along, and its all been discussed many times.  Again, nothing has changed as far as those policies go.

What better price can you get than ... nothing?  If you're ready for alpha, what are you expecting to have to pay for it?  Its been said many times that there is no added cost for alpha servers/hosting, unless you've got an idea of inviting 50,000 people just to alpha test your game, and lets face it, thats not a good idea :)

But, its also been stated that if you DO want to invite 50,000 people... and need the servers for such an amount.  In that case, yes something would have to be done to generate enough revenue to cover added costs.

Quote
I can download unity today and have a build for the public tomorrow if I was fast enough.
If you could build the backend in the same amount of time, perhaps, but that statement covers HE equally :)

You take issue with Kickstarter, a solution used by AAA and Indie alike...  Is it any different than you hosting your own
crowd funding other than getting that extra 5% (and having a far smaller base to draw from)?

I know your "main" question was:
Quote
Is it possible that Idea Fabrik would be willing to license out hosting?

but you've mentioned so many things here that it seems like theres alot of other underlying questions/concerns that perhaps prompted you to want to seek alternative hosting to what is provided already.


Its pretty simple, and my team chose HE knowing the policy, and because of it.  You can understand that if IF begins drastically changing policies here and there, then we have a real reason for concern.  I'm glad they do not. :)

we were all aware of Unity and other game builders when we chose the HE Game Engine.

I can only speak for my team, but we chose to continue rather than give up when recent issues arose, because regardless of what past projects have done, it is the current and future projects that will prove the stability, reliability, and quality of this Engine.

HE-SARRENE

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Re: Hosting yourself, Licensed hosting?
« Reply #11 on: Mar 04, 16, 05:02:36 PM »

Hello and good afternoon NoCake,
    I will try to answer your questions as best as possible. I will also have Christopher help answer those that I cannot or correct me on anything that I may be mistaken in. He is much better with words when it comes to answering technical questions.

"Also please can you directly answer my question on here, I think it is important to be transparent about this issue to the entire community."
    -  I have tried to be as open and transparent as I can since I came on board. I am still trying to achieve this. However, some of the questions you are asking would fall outside the standard business model. However, I will answer as best I can.

    Most of these questions however go outside the scope of our business model as being a service provider, which is clearly defined in the TOS. However, we are always open to partnerships and other opportunities.

    These types of discussions however are generally handled behind in private as a general business rule across all businesses that I have ever had contact with either through work or as a client myself. Often time deals can be struck, but also involve confidential information from both sides, and why it should be handled through email or a meeting. This is why Alex asked if you would email us your specific requests and requirements.

"How can we get the 2 weeks down? I have a great team at my hosting company that create some amazing auto-provisioning systems."
    -  I will let Christopher answer your first question about reducing time, and what it takes.

"As I stated before I am also interested licensed hosting."
    -  Can you explain a bit more what you mean by "Licensed hosting"? If you mean source code, the cost is currently $75,000 + 10% revenue.  The cost for source is for a single title, and added services can be discussed via support email if source licensees need/want.

"You can say IF will help you with launching but the bottom line is it needs to be streamlined."
    -  I am not sure what you mean by streamlined, but it certainly should be playable to some limited degree at least.

"I can download unity today and have a build for the public tomorrow if I was fast enough."
    -  This may be true for a single player game, I have seen some done fairly fast (a few days is the least I have seen) I am not sure if that would cover server and networking, as well as testing for multiple platforms.

"How much would it cost or take to be able to publish my game and have it hosted by you or someone else regardless of the current state of my game?"
    -  This really depends on how his game is designed, it can range from just under $1000 a month up to $38,000 a month. It is all about design, functions and what options are wanted. It also depends on bandwidth used per month as well.

"and last but not least can I get my post moved from "tell me" to "show me". This is extremely important as anyone coming to your forums will go directly to that forum. It is hurting your image greatly as well as the creators trying to release media."
    -  Even though forums are going to eventually be redone (community testing is finished) I can move you no problem.

"Is the 2 week set up time for pushing any content including updates or just the set up?"
    -  This is a Christopher question as he can answer it a bit more clearly than I can. He is better with words than I am at times.


"Do we have to work with IF staff to push updates? If so how long does that take?"
    -  Yes, and we work with you as well. The time it takes depends on what you require and need. Again, I will defer to Christopher to help answer this more completely.
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Amarak

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Re: Hosting yourself, Licensed hosting?
« Reply #12 on: Mar 04, 16, 07:56:48 PM »

I think, in a nutshell, NoCake is simply asking to go live with his game. It isn't complete, but it is playable as a pvp game as is. The issue is that at first there is no income, and he wants to know how much he would have to pay to go live at this stage. That is why he is willing to pay for the hosting, so he can go live without income.

Pretty simple, really. :)
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nocake

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Re: Hosting yourself, Licensed hosting?
« Reply #13 on: Mar 05, 16, 01:24:33 PM »

Licensed Hosting: This means you make an agreement with another hosting company for them to be able to offer different hosting packages for your software. That hosting company pays a royalty to you for every customer they get to host with them. This put the hassle of hosting a public interfacing game with another company while still protecting your source code via the agreement put in place with IF and the other Hosting Companies.

Unity: Yes I am aware networking would take a while, my point was I am not restricted by Unity in releasing my game. This is extremely appealing. Even if it takes me years to get to the point of launch with Unity at least I know I won't have to depend on them directly.

Offering licensing hosting solves this slightly as it lowers the fear of being restricted to one provider for hosting. If I knew I could go other companies to launch my game regardless of the status of my build and IF made % still I would be more inclined to continue. Since I can only work with IF to get my game up and running I am slightly concerned. Once again I must state I have no problem revenue sharing with IF but it would be nice to know other companies could host my game in agreeance with IF and have IF still make money off revenue as well. This is more of an expansion of what is being offered rather than a change.

Streamlined: 2 weeks to work with IF for launch/possible patch is massive time sink! This needs to be heavily automated.

Costs: obviously hosting ranges based on your game set up. packages can still be standardized to offer certain power or even the cloud approach where you pay as use. This is a business decision that must be heavily reviewed but if you license your server software to other hosting companies then they can worry about pricing and packaging for hosting options while you just collect the revenue.

Forum Moving: Thank you.





These questions are extremely valid as it is now very concerning the amount of titles that have actually launched with HE. Please if you think the status quo is ok then there is no need to comment in here. This is about what we would like to see changed.



____________________________________________________________________





Christopher,

Looking forward to hearing your comments on my questions. Thank you for your time.

Next time you are near California please let me know. I will take you out to where ever you request, Ruth's Chris? I live between San Diego and San Jose so I can really meet anywhere in California at some point.






______________________________________________________________________


HE-SARRENE

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Re: Hosting yourself, Licensed hosting?
« Reply #14 on: Mar 05, 16, 05:36:08 PM »

Hello and happy Saturday,
    If you want to enter an alpha or beta phase, all you have to do is email us, let us know what you want, and we can get things worked out.

    Regarding the Licensed hosting, there is a lot more involved than just setting up a single server. It is not only the technical logistics, but also all the legal stuff that is involved.

    This is why I and Alex asked you to please email us and we can schedule a conference call and discuss what you would like. It is not standard business practice to discuss these types of deals on a public forum for any business or company.

    We are willing to discuss this and am interested in your ideas you may have. However, we cannot progress the business discussions that are outside the HeroEngine/HeroCloud platform services offered. I hope you can understand that.

    Waiting and looking forwards to your email if you wish to proceed. :)

- Sarrene'
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